Spirits / Elementals and movement

  • Dracon (Member)

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    I have looked around and can't find anything on spirits that fits my groups situation, either for or against.

    Due to a plan going in a interesting direction we have a opening into a building on the 13th floor. I have levitate and could bring people up but that leaves more room to be shot at. I have a bound air spirit and the question of whether or not it could carry us up to the broken window came up. I cannot find anything on if it could or not. The Movement power could be a idea but I'm sure we couldn't run up the walls with it, though that would be a interesting way to use it.

    Does anyone know if a manifested spirit could pick up the group and carry them to the window?

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    Movement cannot be performed on anyone except the Spirit, since there is no definition of what terrain a creature would control. As such, Spirits do not have specific terrain and thus cannot use Movement on anyone except themselves. Likely these rules only apply to future critters-to-be-made.

    If you look at page 301, it mentions Materialized spirits are relatively solid even if they don't look solid. So they clearly are capable of picking things up. Now on page 152 it says you can carry Strengthx10kg without effort, and roll Bod+Str to add 10kg per hit to that. A Spirit of Air is rather weak, at F-3 STR and F-2 BOD, so it wouldn't be able to carry a lot. (30 kg + 7 dice x 10 kg... Yeah, not gonna happen.) If you summon a spirit of earth, on the other hand, it has F+4 STR and F+4 BOD, so a Force 6 would be able to carry 100 kg and roll 20 dice (say ~6 hits) for carrying more than that. So the light characters with not-too-much gear he could roll the dice to lift 2 at the same time, whereas the heavy characters would have to go 1 at a time.

    And now things get interesting: A Spirit of Earth has F-2 Agility, so with a Force 6 that's 4. That puts him at 8m/16m movement rates. But he can use Movement on himself, which would (Force) six-fold his movement rates. At that point his walking rate is already 48m/CT, so that's 16m/s. His running rate is 32m/s. The opening is about 48m up in the air, so he can take a single CT grabbing people, 1 more floating up there (or half if you want to rush it), 1 more to put people inside, 1 more to go down again. So he takes anywhere from 2 to 4 Combat Turns per round trip.

    By the way, Manifested spirits wouldn't be able to do a thing, since Manifestation does not give a physical form.

  • Dracon (Member)

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    Meant Materialized, I didn't have the book open at the time.

    Where we are right now I don't have the time or materials to do a summoning. One thing I forgot to note if it'd make a difference is I'm hermetic tradition. As far as the Movement power, I believe the description says otherwise and terrain would be assumed by type to a certain extent. Since it's a air spirit the terrain it would control would be air, just like a earth spirit would be earth. For example, a air spirit using movement on a vehicle could be in effect lowering the air resistance around the vehicle to let it gain more speed.

    Quote from Michael Chandra:

    Movement cannot be performed on anyone except the Spirit, since there is no definition of what terrain a creature would control. As such, Spirits do not have specific terrain and thus cannot use Movement on anyone except themselves. Likely these rules only apply to future critters-to-be-made.

    Movement p. 399 Range: LOS This power allows the critter to speed up or slow down the TARGET'S movement rate. The power only works on things that are predisposed to locomotion: VEHICLES, CHARACTERS, or CRITTERS. If used on targets other than the critter, it also only functions in terrain that the critter controls. If used only on the critter itself, this power can be used anywhere. The critter can multiply or divide the TARGET'S movement rate by up to it's Magic Value.

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    You don't need materials for Summoning, Reagents are only required for Binding, they're merely optional here. It takes 1 Complex Action to Summon.

    There is no definition of what terrain a critter controls. Given how they explicitly introduced 'self only, unless in terrain the critter controls' in SR5, yet did not define terrain-control for Spirits, I do not think they intend to let Spirits use Movement on others. It sounds more like they're keeping an option open for the Magic book and some scary critter type. If they did intend for this rulechange to also apply to Spirits, they would have mentioned what Terrain Spirits control. So no, RAW Spirits cannot influence the speed of others and RAI seems to confirm RAW.

    Note that if an air spirit could manipulate a vehicle's movement, they would be able to make some cars move at the speed of sound. It would even possible to make the Eurocar Westwind move at 1/43 of the speed of light, sending it around the globe in 2 Combat Turns, all that would require is 5 hits. A Northrup Wasp would take 8 Combat Turns.

  • Smokey (Member)

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    Quote from Michael Chandra:

    Note that if an air spirit could manipulate a vehicle's movement, they would be able to make some cars move at the speed of sound. It would even possible to make the Eurocar Westwind move at 1/43 of the speed of light, sending it around the globe in 2 Combat Turns, all that would require is 5 hits. A Northrup Wasp would take 8 Combat Turns.

    A feature that was used to great effect by my old 3rd Ed smuggler team who used to use Great Form Air Elementals to do just this to their beloved T-bird to get them through [insert disputed territory name here]. Although I'm not sure it was ever the sizable fraction of lightspeed you described in the scenario above, thank goodness.

    I'm in favour of the SR5 interpretation as it happens, but it does go against some of the earlier sourcebook Lore which indicated that Elementals were expressly intended to be used this way. IC I'll explain it as Spirit Powers simply having changed at the same time that it got so much easier to call Elementals and bind Spirits. I mean, Mages can now call Spirits of Man as standard. That's some pretty weird drek right there, from my perspective :) Hopefully the players will see the buffs Spirit use got, rather than the nerfs.

    I'm liking SR5 more and more the more I read, but I'm never quite going to get used to this fixed target number business. And really, there is absolutely nothing quite like the sound of 30-odd D6s being rolled immediately after the mage declares "Fireballs coming online".

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    Eh, it's still quite doable to roll 20 dice as adept gunbunny, while a magician that has a bound spirit help can roll 25+ if they build for it. 6 skill, +2 mentor spirit, +3 power focus, +2 specialization, +7 magic, +7 force 7 bound spirit is already 27 dice.

  • Dracon (Member)

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    Quote from Dracon:

    Movement p. 399 Range: LOS This power allows the critter to speed up or slow down the TARGET'S movement rate. The power only works on things that are predisposed to locomotion: VEHICLES, CHARACTERS, or CRITTERS. If used on TARGETS OTHER THAN THE CRITTER, IT ALSO ONLY FUNCTIONS in terrain that the critter controls. If used only on the CRITTER ITSELF, this power can be USED ANYWHERE. The critter can multiply or divide the TARGET'S movement rate by up to it's Magic Value.

    Please quote me the page that states the power works differently for spirits than the description shown in the book, which would be the RAW.

    I guess another summoning would work after all then. I took a bound spirit at creation so I hadn't gone over the rules in detail yet. I've played since 2nd but mainly a decker so I was probably thinking of something with the old summoning rules.

  • Dracon (Member)

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    Quote from Michael Chandra:

    Given how they explicitly introduced 'self only, unless in terrain the critter controls' in SR5, yet did not define terrain-control for Spirits, I do not think they intend to let Spirits use Movement on others. It sounds more like they're keeping an option open for the Magic book and some scary critter type. If they did intend for this rulechange to also apply to Spirits, they would have mentioned what Terrain Spirits control. So no, RAW Spirits cannot influence the speed of others and RAI seems to confirm RAW.

    Sorry for double post, forgot to address in previous.

    No where in the power does it say it is self only. As I quote the actual first paragraph of the power and it's range I would like to know where in the spirit section it says their powers are self only.

    Spirit Services p. 302 Power use: you CAN have a spirit use one of its powers on a target or targets of your choosing. If the power is sustained, it counts as one service .......

  • Smokey (Member)

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    Pretty sure he's not saying its stated. He's saying its implied by the fact the power says it can only be used on others in a terrain controlled by the critter but there is a total absence of definition of what terrain a spirit can control. Ergo (he says) spirits do not control a particular terrain and therefore cannot ever be in a terrain they control and therefore cannot use movement power on anything but themselves.

    I find the reasoning to be full of assumptions (like "designers have not forgotten to define terrain" and "editors never remove things to save space without realising the knock on effect") but other than that the logic is sound.

    Sigh. Whatever happened to domains? They were easy to grasp.

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    It's indeed based on the assumption that they wouldn't talk about terrain then forget to explain what terrain a spirit controls, and on the assumption they didn't accidentally lose the terrain definition due to version complications. The second is uncertain, of course, so it depends on what errata we get. For now, RAW doesn't support a spirit using Movement on anyone else.

    As for self-only: That's for Movement, which says you can only use it on others in controlled terrain. Spirits can use their powers on others just fine.

  • Dracon (Member)

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    'How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?'

    Sherlock Holmes Quote -The Sign of Four Chapter 6: "Sherlock Holmes Gives a Demonstration

    Fact: It is stated that a spirit can use its powers on others. RAW p. 302

    Fact: Movement states it can be used on 'things that are predisposed to locomotion: VEHICLES, CHARACTERS, or CRITTERS' RAW p. 399

    Assumption: Because terrain is not specifically defined in the book the power is self only.

    Fact: Despite terrain not being defined in the book the person running the game can determine whether or not the power can be used in a given area if the appropriate terrain is present.

    Fact: On p. 201 there is a Terrain Modifiers Table with various examples of terrain

    While not as broken down anymore in later editions here is the list from 2nd edition http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/spirits.html

    Fact: Of the critters in the book only the spirits have the movement power. Of those only Air, Earth, Beasts, and Water automatically have it but Man can get it as a optional.

    Truth: The movement power can be used as it is written by a spirit, not just on itself.

    Quote from Michael Chandra:

    Note that if an air spirit could manipulate a vehicle's movement, they would be able to make some cars move at the speed of sound. It would even possible to make the Eurocar Westwind move at 1/43 of the speed of light, sending it around the globe in 2 Combat Turns, all that would require is 5 hits. A Northrup Wasp would take 8 Combat Turns.

    This is impossible. RAW p 399 'If the target is a vehicle, the critter makes a Magic + Willpower test with a threshold of half the vehicle's Body (round up), with a minimum of 2. If the critter meets the threshold in this test, multiply the hits by the vehicle's Acceleration Rating and add the result to (or subtract it from) the vehicle's speed in the next Combat Turn, as if making as Acceleration or Deceleration Test.' Yes this can be done multiple times but at a certain point the driver would no longer have control and would be likely to crash so going around the globe in 2 combat turns is not possible, and you are assuming 5 hits every time.

    Quote from Michael Chandra:

    There is no definition of what terrain a critter controls. Given how they explicitly introduced 'self only, unless in terrain the critter controls' in SR5, yet did not define terrain-control for Spirits, I do not think they intend to let Spirits use Movement on others. It sounds more like they're keeping an option open for the Magic book and some scary critter type. If they did intend for this rulechange to also apply to Spirits, they would have mentioned what Terrain Spirits control. So no, RAW Spirits cannot influence the speed of others and RAI seems to confirm RAW.

    Air - most likely open areas or those deemed appropriate by the GM Earth - unworked / natural areas like mountains, caverns, solid ground Water - any mass of water Man - any worked area, cities, roads Beast - not quite sure on this one. maybe areas with a lot of animals

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    Fact: The Terrain Table you reference applies to Vehicle Test thresholds. It has zero relation with Critters and mentions nothing about Control.

    Fact: There is no definition of what, if any, terrain Spirits Control.

    Fact: I never claimed GMs cannot houserule terrain-control rules.

    Fact: Making a GM ruling that bypasses RAW is making a houserule.

    Fact: I was discussing RAW. Not houserules.

    Fact: Movement was not restricted in such a manner in SR4.

    Fact: SR5 introduced the Terrain restriction.

    Fact: SR5 did not introduce terrain-per-spirit definitions despite introducing the Terrain restriction.

    Truth: By RAW AND RAI, Movement cannot be used by Spirits on anyone but themselves. Only houserules allow otherwise right now.

    Players must always follow RAW unless their GM allows otherwise by table ruling or permanent houserule. Only the GM makes the call to differ. A player must never argue that RAW supports X when it doesn't, since trying to deceive the GM is cheating. Trying to convince the GM to make a houserule, however, is allowed.

    Also, Fact: Tossing Facts my way which partially already were stated, partially are unrelated to the debate and partially have no relation to RAW since it's about houserules, then throwing an unsupported truth as if it is RAW my way, struck me as really disrespectful and a munchkin move.

    If you want to rulelawyer this to claim it's supposedly okay despite all the evidence it is not, go talk to your GM. But it's obvious to me what RAW and RAI are, and though I've made sure to look well through the rules, I found not a single thing in the rules that supports your reading.

  • Lurker37

    Lurker37 (Member)

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    Could it be as simple as a spirit controls travel through their element/domain? Air spirits for flight, earth for on or in the ground, Man for roads or inside buildings, etc?

  • Dracon (Member)

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    Sorry if you found that disrespectful but like I said before, I've been playing since 2nd and I pulled out the 3rd edition books to check something.

    Quote from Michael Chandra:

    Fact: The Terrain Table you reference applies to Vehicle Test thresholds. It has zero relation with Critters and mentions nothing about Control.

    I was mainly referencing that for examples of terrain, not saying it applied to spirits.

    Fact: There is no definition of what, if any, terrain Spirits Control.

    Fact: SR5 did not introduce terrain-per-spirit definitions despite introducing the Terrain restriction.

    This seems to be assumed by their type in this edition.

    Nature Spirits p 266 3rd edition 'Nature spirits rarely appear in any fixed form. When they do materialize, it is often in a form that reflects their home terrain. If conjured by a shaman of great power, these spirits may appear in a shape somewhat like their summoner, but composed of matter of their home terrain. Spirits of Man are the major exception, as they usually assume humanoid form.'

    Fact: SR5 introduced the Terrain restriction.

    Page 12-13 in Critters source book 3rd edition MOVEMENT Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: LOS • Duration: Sustained The being may use the Movement power to increase or decrease a target’s movement rate within the terrain it controls by multiplying or dividing the target’s movement rate by its Essence. When used on vehicles, the critter makes an Essence Test with a target number equal to half the vehicle’s Body. Multiply the successes by the vehicle’s Acceleration Rating and add the result to or subtract it from the vehicle’s Speed in the next Combat Turn (similar to the vehicle making an Acceleration or Deceleration Test). The critter may continue making Essence Tests to increase or decrease the vehicle’s speed each Combat Turn it sustains the Movement power. Depending on the situation, this change in speed may call for a Crash or Stress Test.

    Looks nearly identical without a side by side comparison.

    Fact: I was discussing RAW. Not houserules.

    So was I.

    Fact: Movement was not restricted in such a manner in SR4.

    There seems to be a bit of backpedaling to things that changed when 4th came out, Priorities in character creation for example.

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    The second you talked about how the GM can decide that a Spirit controls X, you were talking houserules. Not to mention you clearly brought up the Terrain table to support Spirits having terrain under control, since there is no reason whatsoever to bring it up otherwise, and let's not forget that the difference in what Speed means between 3rd and 5th edition clearly means you can't just depend on the SR3 definitions. Plus going all "Fact!" rather than just presenting your argument is basically going "aha!" without trying to argue things, simply going "this is the truth, period", and that is why I found it disrespectful.

    I'm glad your next post actually argued things, but that was pretty much too late since it also showed we do not see eye to eye on a lot of things, and not just the rules themselves but the debate around it. As such, I think this debate is pointless. When we can't even agree on the definition of what RAW is, nevermind what RAW says in this case, this will get nowhere. I wish you good luck asking for official clarification/errata on this matter, but I don't think I can help you understand SR5 since we are way too different in how we believe one should behave.

    Thank you, by the way, for supplying me with material that proves the SR5 power is written wrong.

  • Dracon (Member)

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    I presented the facts based on what is written in the rulebook, which is missing the type of description for spirits in my last post. Though it seems to be assumed they work the way they have previously, whether that was on purpose or by leaving out something by accident I don't know.

    The GM is free to say, no, you can't use it inside because it is a xxxx spirit instead of a spirit of man but they could allow it, it wasn't about house rules.

    You were unwilling to even consider you might be wrong with each argument I presented using the 5th edition only. Since it was getting nowhere I posted the facts the way I did, giving examples of what I could find in just that book. I had to go dig out the 3rd edition to show you that it had been previously defined in that way even though you claim it wasn't, yet didn't check 3rd to be sure you were right. Fortunately, my GM is also a long time Shadowrun player so I won't have to 'deceive or cheat' him to get him to allow something that is allowed in the rules.

    Agreeing to disagree is one thing we can agree on and I hope you are more receptive to listening to the argument presented in the future. This edition seems to be reversing several changes that were made from 3rd to 4th so it can't just be argued 'it isn't in 4th that way'.

    The power isn't written wrong, it was taken back a edition and worded to fit into the new one.

  • Dracon (Member)

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    Quote from Lurker37:

    Could it be as simple as a spirit controls travel through their element/domain? Air spirits for flight, earth for on or in the ground, Man for roads or inside buildings, etc?

    Yes

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    "I hope you are more receptive to listening to the argument presented in the future."

    Right back at you. After all my claim is clearly correct: "There is no definition of what terrain a critter controls. Given how they explicitly introduced 'self only, unless in terrain the critter controls' in SR5" is very obvious about the change from SR4 to SR5, and as such makes zero claim whatsoever about SR3. The point was "They changed X from SR4 to SR5 but did not add Y, so Y is simply not the case yet". It's a shame that you thought I meant "in any previous edition" and decided to pick a fight rather than have a proper debate with proper arguments. If you had listened better to what I was saying, it would have been obvious to you that I was talking about the change from the LAST edition to the CURRENT, so the claim was not wrong at all. Or you could have simply said "but that's not true, it was like that in SR3" and I could have said "ah, but if they wanted a full throwback to SR3 they would have included spirit terrain control descriptions". Instead, you did not make clear what you meant and instead decided to pick a fight, which ruined the debate.

    And actually, yes, the power is extremely likely written wrong when it comes to RAI. I am, however, not going to tell you what SR3>SR5 difference makes it written wrong. I'll leave figuring that out as test to see whether you are willing to practice as you preach and actually be receptive to listen to the arguments. It's easy enough to notice, really, and it's the core of this vehicle-movement trick and why it sounds so wrong.


    By the way, please provide me your definition of RAW, because clearly we are not following the same definition. I consider RAW the Rules As (Explicitly) Written, anything that is simply likely meant but not Written is Rules As Intended. And when RAI is unclear (such as in this case the debate on whether they intended for Spirits to not have terrain control), any ruling on RAI is a houserule to me. Clearly those are not the definitions you follow.

  • Smokey (Member)

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    Quote from Michael Chandra:

    "There is no definition of what terrain a critter controls. Given how they explicitly introduced 'self only, unless in terrain the critter controls' in SR5"

    This is true, but I also haven't seen a single critter in the relevant section where the terrain they control is specified (nor does any "critter" in the critter section of the rulebook even HAVE the Movement power. The definition can ONLY be included for the benefit of Spirits, as the only thing in the book with the Movement power is Spirits.

    The Movement power further actually refers to terrain/domain, not just terrain - but neither I can't find a definition of domain anywhere - nor mention of 'domains' outside the movement power description itself.

    I really think there is an omission in the book in terms of terrain/domain. where spirits are concerned. Now, I accept that means that any clarification/judgement/conclusion/inference we draw from any other context (any other, especially earlier versions of the rules much though I think those are a good indication of how the designers see identically named concepts fitting in) is then by definition a houserule. That's fine. I'd probably go with the traditional definitions from 2nd and 3rd ed until we know differently simply because I and my players understand them. And it would be a houserule to do so.

    Now, hopefully that's positioned me so it's clear I do understand the difference between RAW, RAI, and houserules, so i don't get drawn into the argument.

    So:

    @Michael:

    I do believe this is a matter for inclusion in the errata, I think they have overlooked a definition. Unless there's an explicit reference that says 'spirits can only use Movement self only' I really don't see how we can draw any other conclusion given the lack of any critter (never mind spirits) that even has Movement in the rulebook, let alone has a terrain/domain specified wherein they could use Movement power on something other than "self". Why even mention terrain if you're intending for an expansion book, presumably a critters book, to be the only place where you'd have any critters that could use that portion of the Power?

    Based on your moderator status I'm going to guess you know the answer to this: how do I report that for consideration please?

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    You'd go to the errata topic on the SRT website.

    The problem I noted is unrelated to the lack of domain definition, so I have posted about it in the Clarification/FAQ topic there instead. Once I get feedback on what RAI is, I intend to report it for errata. Since this is not related to the domain-definition, you could report in the errata topic yourself. I originally did not think this is necessary myself, since I found it more plausible that they intend to provide critters who have Movement and domain/terrain-control in the SR5 Magic book.

    It wouldn't be the first time, note that Homeground mentions Background Count while Background Count is not defined in SR5 Core, so they prepared a few things to be used in full detail only in future extended core books, without replacing the original thing then. After all, if the Magic book would have to go "Errata Movement and Homeground with the following:", that's rather annoying. It's better to cast a wide net in the Core book and only use it to the full extent when the extended books come out, rather than forcing your extended book to errata the core. Another example is Grid upgrades.

    It is also possible, of course, that they forgot to copy over the domain/terrain control from SR3. Since it's now been proven to be an SR3 throwback, it's quite plausible now that they forgot to copy part over. A full new rule section would extremely likely not make this mistake, but throwbacks can get into flaws more easily. So you may want to ask in the Clarification/FAQ topic whether they intended for Spirits to have domains/terrain-control. If confirmed as intended, it's indeed something to be reported for errata.

  • Smokey (Member)

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    ty, posted there.

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    Noted and replied to. :) I had used the Print-preview of both FAQ and Errata to search for it, and Movement power had not come up before.

  • Smokey (Member)

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    Thanks. I'd done a quick forum search, turned up something in the running wild errata but not related to spirits or the power in general, and obviously 4th ed. But I didn't know how good the forum search tool was, sometimes they're awful.

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    Yeah, it's why I just open the Print preview and do a manual search.

  • Dracon (Member)

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    I am a judge for a miniatures game at the local hobby shop. If a question comes up that I don't know the answer to right away I have to go through the RAW, tournament guides, and if needed the web to determine the answer in a matter of seconds to determine the answer since they are timed events. As in many games the rule 'if the xxxx would contradict the rules it takes presidence', or RAI for that instance, is used so sometimes I have to make a call by what sound right and research it after.

    In this case no matter what RAW I quoted to show RAI it was shot down as not right. So I posted all the 5th edition RAW that had any indication of applying to show RAI as well as some references to previous editions that dealt with it. In return I was insulted and told I was disrespectful. From the beginning of character creation it is obvious that they went back at least to 3rd if not 2nd for some of the rules but you had only quoted from 4th in which some of those had changed. Please look at 3rd for additional rules differences from 4th that will most likely come up over time.

    I hope they clarify it the way it was intended to be soon. As far as the vehicle part, I am not worried about that as we don't have a vehicle that can hold everyone right now and by the time we do they should have the errata out for that part if it needs it as you have said.

  • Balfuset790

    Balfuset790 (Member)

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    The thing is, Michael's already made the point that the inclusion of terrain/domain references in the Movement power leaves Catalyst open to adding such definitions to future critters in supplements without needing to reprint, or creat a new, power for that purpose. They may even create a new power like 'Terrain Control: XXX' for those such critters. We don't know yet.

    As written currently, without any explicit definition of controlled terrains for Spirits in SR5, this appears to be a placeholder for future supplements (which is an intelligent editorial decision as it saves on errata later). Sure, there's plenty of ways you the GM can imply what terrain a critter controls, but that is a houserule at this stage of the game's development. Anything not written in a rulebook, nor implied by other references, is houseruling. In this instance, other than their names.

    Technically speaking, spirits aren't even of this world, they come from the metaplanes. Why should they have any influence over the terrain of the physical world? Their interactions are all on the Astral, where the difference between a forest and a city, or the sky and the ocean is non-existant.

  • Smokey (Member)

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    Well its been reported for errata or FAQ now so its a fairly dead point. All we can agree here is that its unclear what is intended and any conclusions are being made bases on what we think is safe to infer from other content. I'm not happy to do that as it is entirely possible the designer simply forgot to include, or accidentally removed, clarifying info. I've reported the lack of clarity I'm happy to now wait for an answer.

    Fwiw though I will be using the third Ed domain alignment till I hear differently because it adds verisimilitude to have my spirit of man be more powerful in a city than it is in a forest even though I can call it in either place now.

    But I also acknowledge that is a house rule till proven otherwise.

    I don't think there's any value in pursuing who argued the most loquaciously or logically or fairly or most in tune with what methodology, I really don't.

  • tuffentsamer (Member)

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    As a GM I decided to use the rule of limiting attributes to 1.5 their current value. The vehicle's speed could increase by x1.5 its current value. Any spirit over a force 2, would only be able to apply a multiple of 1.5. For example, a car's max speed is 120 mph and with spirit movement it can now travel at 180 mph. At this increased speed, I would apply penalties to handling, because the vehicle or object was not design or accustom to operating at this new velocity. This seems to keep things within my believable realm of reality with out going crazy.

  • Citizen Joe

    Citizen Joe (Member)

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    The game rules are designed to simulate the game setting. Some of the mechanics can change so long as the end results remain consistent with the game setting. There were several editions worth of powers, stories and equipment in place before 5th edition rolled in. That doesn't mean that anything not currently listed in the newest book suddenly vanished, merely that the rules haven't caught up yet.

    There is substantial history of spirits using their movement power on other people and things. There is substantial evidence of errata being published. There is substantial evidence of source books being published and republished. There is substantial evidence of factual errors in the sourcebooks... errors which don't get corrected even through 4 editions. So, fanatically claiming that something doesn't exist because you can't find it in the newest edition will not win you any friends.

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

    rank: Master

    score: 152

    Keep in mind Movement is in error due to how Speed changed from SR3 to SR5. Just like how Power Foci no longer boost Magic because Magic changed. Thanks to people quoting the SR3 text, I was able to figure out that error.