Cyberware upgrades in SRR

  • HitTheDecker

    HitTheDecker (Face)

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    What is the top level of Cyberware that will be available? Has anyone asked Q&A about military-grade Delta Cyberware?

    I'm just wondering if there is a certain standard for what Cyberware should look like in 2050 (or if the sky is the limit).

  • DarkCarnage

    DarkCarnage (Member)

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    hmm good question, i hope delta make the list some day. but maybe not on relase and/or need to complet certain runs to earn the rights to a delta clinic(you know tehy going to ask for a favor)

  • Lobo (Member)

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    If it is 2050, then normal cyberware should be the standard, alpha should be rare, beta extremely rare, and delta non-existent for the most part.

    If it is 2060, then alpha should be much more common, beta should still be very rare, and delta should be extremely rare.

    IMHO anyway

  • DarkCarnage

    DarkCarnage (Member)

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    i can see delta being a epic quest to earn the rights to get it. only a handfull or so of delta clinics after all.

  • Johnny_Memphis

    Johnny_Memphis (Member)

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    I asked a blanket "source book inclusion" in the Developer Q&A.

    Mitch said they were sticking with the core ruleset, which means Delta is pretty much out. And absolutely no bioware.

    Since SRR is set in the early 2050s, I'm willing to bet that Alpha and Beta are also out. They weren't included in the core book until SR3 which starts off in the late 50s.

    But you might want to ask more directly in the Developer Q&A.

  • DarkCarnage

    DarkCarnage (Member)

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    hmm true but i think they going by the core rulebook of SR5e this time. so teh core rules set be diffrent then waht we thinking at this time, by alittle to leaps and bound. we see once it goes beta mode for a rough idea.

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    This is a Shadowrun Returns topic though, not a Shadowrun Online topic.

  • DarkCarnage

    DarkCarnage (Member)

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    hmm true, but till i see a rough beta of it not going to assume waht rules/items they letting in for starting chars ^^ i hope alpha a option but it not needed. i always build my guys around absics and if extra lean way given then i use it ;)

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    Uhm... Again, this is about Shadowrun Returns. That doesn't use 5e and doesn't have a beta. Shadowrun Online is based on 5e and will have a beta.

  • DarkCarnage

    DarkCarnage (Member)

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    i know and they did a alpha build and showed the vid of it. gernaly speaking, i do some programing for network for the army, you tend to do a alpha and beta build, now that does not mean they let us play it, might be a inhouse build to test expaneded rule and mission to make sure they working correctly. We might not see it or play it outselves, althought they might show a short vid of how char maker works once they more sure how they want things to go.

    but to stay on topic abit i would think something around availablity of around 12 seems likely, but they mgiht down play it and start us with a lower one like around 8. if you wondering why simplely it the lowest level of wire reflex (8R) that alot of runners love to use.

  • Armoes

    Armoes (Member)

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    I'm wondering if they'll even be different levels of Wire Reflexes in SRR. I would prefer there was, but also understand that video games have limits and translation issues.

  • DarkCarnage

    DarkCarnage (Member)

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    hmm true armoes, i know they can not stick to stock core rules since they using HP instead of the old hit box system. so some thing likely be removed,add or fitted to their liking. all we can do hope and pray chummer.

  • HitTheDecker

    HitTheDecker (Face)

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    Okay, question asked in Q&A...

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    HP is basically a Mook Health system with the boxes divided in tenths. Not really a big difference.

  • Johnny_Memphis

    Johnny_Memphis (Member)

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    Quote from DarkCarnage:

    hmm true armoes, i know they can not stick to stock core rules since they using HP instead of the old hit box system.

    Even the old school games used the HP system. People just understand the concept better.

    I admit trying to explain to my players "No, you only have 10 hit points. Everyone only has 10 hit points!" was tough.

  • DarkCarnage

    DarkCarnage (Member)

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    Quote from Johnny_Memphis:

    Quote from DarkCarnage:

    hmm true armoes, i know they can not stick to stock core rules since they using HP instead of the old hit box system.

    Even the old school games used the HP system. People just understand the concept better.

    I admit trying to explain to my players "No, you only have 10 hit points. Everyone only has 10 hit points!" was tough.

    ya but did hammer in that one false move and you will be a dead man, no one got cheap on armor and for planning for runs.

    well if they did break it in to 10 to 100hp, althought i get a feeling they hard abit more then that in the alpha vid. however it was just a test so we see what they settle on as the ratio.

  • weaslex

    weaslex (Member)

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    HTD, I'm gonna have to refer you the SNES game as well, the setting is pretty much the same. 7th generation Cyberdeck, ect. If you play a Rom with an emulator (Not suggesting on here where to find one, don't want to get in trouble here) you could replay the game and get a better sense of what 2050 was all about. It's also made by the same dev Mitch, sooooo that could give you a good long look at what SRR could be like.

  • HitTheDecker

    HitTheDecker (Face)

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    Well, the SNES game takes place a number of years after SRR and they aren't basing this game on that version.

    It's still an open question in Q&A.

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    They all had 60 HP and Body 6 in the Alpha video. The NPCs that got shot had less in at least some cases.

  • DaveyD

    DaveyD (Member)

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    I'm guessing they're going to keep Cyberware pretty simple both due to their limited budget and for game balance reasons.

    For ex: Mitch has stated in the Q&A thread that wired reflexes will add 1 AP. Since the default AP for new characters is 2 (with the possibility for characters to gain an additional one from skills) then a Wired Reflexes (3) would give your character 5-6 AP, giving them the ability to perform 2 to 3 times the amount of actions that a character w/o WR can. While I'm sure WR (3) works fine in the tabletop game, where a GMs can adjust enemy strength at their discretion, it might not translate well to a video game without adjustable difficulty where your character could be a mage / shaman who won't want to take an essence hit. (However, it was also said that haste spells will add 1 AP, so I suppose their could be a "level 3" haste spell that adds 3AP to keep things balanced for magic oriented characters).

  • weaslex

    weaslex (Member)

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    Quote from HitTheDecker:

    Well, the SNES game takes place a number of years after SRR and they aren't basing this game on that version.

    It's still an open question in Q&A.

    Mmmm... Actually, the SNES game literally takes place on 2050 while SRR I think takes place 4 years latter. This is why we have Jake Armtage, along with the fact that Mitch created the character during his work on SNES, as a runner. The Tech level is pretty much the same, and with some resource books I have, I think I can help you better in the next few posts I make here.

  • HitTheDecker

    HitTheDecker (Face)

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    Quote from DaveyD:

    I'm guessing they're going to keep Cyberware pretty simple both due to their limited budget and for game balance reasons.

    For ex: Mitch has stated in the Q&A thread that wired reflexes will add 1 AP. Since the default AP for new characters is 2 (with the possibility for characters to gain an additional one from skills) then a Wired Reflexes (3) would give your character 5-6 AP, giving them the ability to perform 2 to 3 times the amount of actions that a character w/o WR can. While I'm sure WR (3) works fine in the tabletop game, where a GMs can adjust enemy strength at their discretion, it might not translate well to a video game without adjustable difficulty where your character could be a mage / shaman who won't want to take an essence hit. (However, it was also said that haste spells will add 1 AP, so I suppose their could be a "level 3" haste spell that adds 3AP to keep things balanced for magic oriented characters).

    Well, I'm hoping there is more than a "basic" tier for Cyberware and (Haste) spells. In terms of balancing it's a single-player game, so having more options for all classes would work. In terms of time, once you code "tier one" coding higher tiers is very simple (you copy and paste the code and increase the int by 1). While they can always release more cyberware, spells and programs in later patches (or Campaign Packs) I think they can get the ball rolling in the release. Upgrading is pretty important for a sense of progression and advancement.

  • DarkCarnage

    DarkCarnage (Member)

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    well fi tehy going old school, the A,b,C,D,E for money,race, etc. should be isntersting to use that all overagain lol.

  • Gothic_Wizard

    Gothic_Wizard (Member)

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    Quote from Johnny_Memphis:

    I asked a blanket "source book inclusion" in the Developer Q&A.

    Mitch said they were sticking with the core ruleset, which means Delta is pretty much out. And absolutely no bioware.

    That seems contradictory to me. The bioware sourcebook came out during 1E and IIRC the time frame of the book was 2051-2052. So if the CRPG takes place in ~2053 which is what I have been reading I fail to see how bioware does not fit for inclusion? By the official timeline it is out by the time this game starts.

  • Armoes

    Armoes (Member)

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    @GOTHIC_WIZARD My understanding: It's not a setting-time frame thing. It's that with their limited time and budget they have a laser focus on what is absolutely core to getting a playable game out.

  • Gothic_Wizard

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    Quote from Armoes:

    @GOTHIC_WIZARD My understanding: It's not a setting-time frame thing. It's that with their limited time and budget they have a laser focus on what is absolutely core to getting a playable game out.

    I can understand that POV, however I am a little confused how difficult some of the staple bioware would be to include. Most of it has a cyberware equivalent, thus a good portion of the coding would be already done like the muscle augmentation and sub-dermal armor, you have bioware muscle replacement and dermal armor. Aside from perhaps some minor art work, code change it wouldn't be much effort to reproduce such speaking as a former programmer. Back in the day I used to copy/paste code, tweak it to produce 'new' effects, items, monster, etc all the time.

    None the less, it is what it is, hopefully we get bioware, more cyberware added as a DLC or some such :)

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    You're right, it'd be very easy to add in the future. But even coding, arting and balancing them could already eat up time they decided to spend on other parts of the development for now. So they tabled it until after release and after that they'll see. And so shall we. Who knows, maybe Berlin will already introduce new toys.

  • Gothic_Wizard

    Gothic_Wizard (Member)

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    Quote from Michael Chandra:

    You're right, it'd be very easy to add in the future. But even coding, arting and balancing them could already eat up time they decided to spend on other parts of the development for now. So they tabled it until after release and after that they'll see. And so shall we. Who knows, maybe Berlin will already introduce new toys.

    The other aspect that perplexes me, again from a programming standpoint, is the whole Alpha, Beta, Delta issue. Correct me if I am not recalling correctly but the only difference was Essence cost/price. If so I fail to see how many zots it would cost the dev team to simply add that basic math to the cyberware data tables. ie cyberware x, essence cost 1.0; cost multiplier 1, alpha essence .9; cost multiplier 2, beta essence .7; cost multiplier 4, etc

    Again from a programming standpoint it's really not that time consuming to add these kind of basic math formulas to the data tables. My 2 coppers.

    ps: In fairness and full disclosure let me say they are probably programming in C++ or some variant of and since that wasn't my forte` it may be very difficult to do such under that language more so then when I was a programmer. But generally speaking adding these kind of basic math tables shouldn't be that difficult overall.

  • DarkCarnage

    DarkCarnage (Member)

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    Quote from Gothic_Wizard:

    Quote from Michael Chandra:

    You're right, it'd be very easy to add in the future. But even coding, arting and balancing them could already eat up time they decided to spend on other parts of the development for now. So they tabled it until after release and after that they'll see. And so shall we. Who knows, maybe Berlin will already introduce new toys.

    The other aspect that perplexes me, again from a programming standpoint, is the whole Alpha, Beta, Delta issue. Correct me if I am not recalling correctly but the only difference was Essence cost/price. If so I fail to see how many zots it would cost the dev team to simply add that basic math to the cyberware data tables. ie cyberware x, essence cost 1.0; cost multiplier 1, alpha essence .9; cost multiplier 2, beta essence .7; cost multiplier 4, etc

    Again from a programming standpoint it's really not that time consuming to add these kind of basic math formulas to the data tables. My 2 coppers.

    ps: In fairness and full disclosure let me say they are probably programming in C++ or some variant of and since that wasn't my forte` it may be very difficult to do such under that language more so then when I was a programmer. But generally speaking adding these kind of basic math tables shouldn't be that difficult overall.

    well there also advailibley (starting i think was 12?) you got to watch for, i would thinks tarting chars limited to alpha maybe ebta if tehy wanted to be nice. delta should really be a ingame reward for doing some sort of side quest that pretty tough. granted ti 10X the price for 1/2 the essance, but it can become high powered pretty fast.

  • RC

    RC (Administrator)

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    It's more likely an issue of balancing the game mathematically...which takes a lot more time to figure out and play test to make sure it doesn't break the game when incorporating the tabletop mechanics as much as possible. Time they don't have right now to make sure it's well balanced. ^_^

  • HitTheDecker

    HitTheDecker (Face)

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    Quote from RC:

    It's more likely an issue of balancing the game mathematically...which takes a lot more time to figure out and play test to make sure it doesn't break the game when incorporating the tabletop mechanics as much as possible. Time they don't have right now to make sure it's well balanced. ^_^

    What if they released a sample test-mission to the backers, with a variety of challenges, to "test" those mechanics? I'm sure they'd get good bug reports and it wouldn't ruin the story for anyone. Crowd funded games often take advantage of the wonderful resource of "free game testers" that their campaign creates.

  • Johnny_Memphis

    Johnny_Memphis (Member)

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    It's true that the Alpha/Beta grade cyberware isn't hard to code in directly, but the balance is an issue like RC said.

    Bioware, on the other hand, introduces a brand new level of complication to the system. The negative effects of excessive bioware (target modifiers to illness and recovery for example) can't really be implemented in a tactical strategy RPG the way it can in PnP. And since there are cybernetic equivalents for a lot of the 'ware, why create a headache for the dev team?

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    Decker: That'd still take time to create it, spread a test version, then compile the results. So yeah, in the future they'd have time for it, but I would include it in the "saved for later" list in a heartbeat. Once they release they got the time to start working on everything they had to shelf due to constraints.

  • RC

    RC (Administrator)

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    I think Michael's hit the nail on its head. Managing beta-testing is time consuming, which also translates to expensive, even when you have a community ready to pitch in with the actual testing. With hopefully more resources after launch, HBS might reach out to us to pitch in, in the future. ^_^

  • CanRay

    CanRay (Member)

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    Which means that we'll all soon have a chance to kill RC.

    Over, and over, and over, and over again.

    You know, I don't feel so bad at not being able to afford to be an NPC now. ;)

  • Michael Chandra

    Michael Chandra (Moderator)

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    Really, Canray? I could have sworn you were in the alpha video, as the guy being harassed by the Eye-Fiver.

  • RC

    RC (Administrator)

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    ...I only regret that I have but one gajillion lives to lose for Shadowrun Returns... ^_^

  • CanRay

    CanRay (Member)

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    Quote from Michael Chandra:

    Really, Canray? I could have sworn you were in the alpha video, as the guy being harassed by the Eye-Fiver.

    My beard is far more epic.

  • HitTheDecker

    HitTheDecker (Face)

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    I have a Delta-grade cybernetic beard. Hey, I can make a cyberware item like that in the editor, right?

  • CanRay

    CanRay (Member)

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    Speaking of cyberware, I'm working on the Surgical-Grade Stainless Steel Bone Lacing on the Installment Plan.

  • Domongart

    Domongart (Member)

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    My hope is that Cyberware will come in bits and pieces with each new DLC. That would give the team plenty of time to test the balance on the new cyberware pieces, and give the community another reason to invest in HBS produced stories. The more support HBS receive, the more goodies they can develop for us.
    It looks like SRR is going to be kind of like a Core Rulebook. We get the basic stuff(editor), an Adventure to play(campaign), and then wait for the next source-book(DLC).
    I will be more than happy to buy new DLC if each time we get:
    1. An adventure
    2. New Editor Art/Tiles/etc
    3. New Equipment/Cyberware carefully balanced.

    I would hope for a DLC that will have Astral, but I would also expect that to be a bigger DLC. You would be getting new game-play mechanics, in addition to tiles, art, and equipment.

  • Traxx Steiner

    Traxx Steiner (Moderator)

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    This is the right perspective DOMONGART. With the limited resources at hand HBS major task was to create a working and appealing base system. Every expansion to it will gradually arrive after enough resources were amassed and Mitch and his team coded it.

    Patience is the key...

    T.

  • opifer

    opifer (Member)

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    Yup. Fingers crossed for big commercial hit followed by 10x the sales numbers after good press and a Steam winter sale. Should equal plenty of cyberware, bioware, guns and spells.

  • ODonnell_Heir

    ODonnell_Heir (Member)

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    Quote from HitTheDecker:

    What is the top level of Cyberware that will be available? Has anyone asked Q&A about military-grade Delta Cyberware?

    I'm just wondering if there is a certain standard for what Cyberware should look like in 2050 (or if the sky is the limit).

    The SRR Campaign is based around a simple run. Right now they only had enough time and money to add in the assets they needed for that. Delta grade cyberware is probably not going to show up unless someone UGCs it in.

  • Maverick87

    Maverick87 (Member)

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    I only worry our expectations are too high. I want this game to be great just like the rest of us. But I do not think a chorus of angels is going to sing when the game finishes downloading. It is going to be a very simplified isometric single player game based on the Shadowrun rule set. We are going to get a semi-confusing editor that once mastered will allow us to all create our own content. All this content will still be played single player though. You will not have the joy of showing your friends your cool new stuff or bragging about a new spell. Any accomplishment you do brag about is moot because your peers know you could just have cheesed the editor for the accomplishment. I do not want to come to these forums and see a fallout when this game does not meet the impossibly high expectations we have. Please temper your dreams with an edge of reality and you will probably like the game more for what it is. Now if you will excuse me I am going to my panic room to avoid the flame war I may have just triggered. Good day. b-(

  • Kanadyets

    Kanadyets (Member)

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    While many of us are in tenterhooks waiting for this game, I get the sense that expectations aren't too high. HBS has done a superb job of keeping us informed of the developments. For my own part, while I haven't been more excited for a game release, it has more to do with a chance to experience the world of Shadowrun more than anything else.

  • opifer

    opifer (Member)

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    Actually having played the tactical combat aspect of the game through the editor, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the game's high quality and innovations.

  • mitilixatchil

    mitilixatchil (Member)

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    Let's not forget that integrating Bioware would also require the creation and tracking of a new variable: Body Index. Also, the Body Index system, being based off of the character's natural Body rating, allowed Body heavy characters like Trolls to go crazy with Bioware. Even if you make the Body Index variable, how do you stop it from being confused by Cyber implants that increase Body, like Dermal Armor, Bone Lacing, and Dermal Sheathes, etc? In addition, Body increases from PhysAd powers or Increase Attribute spells? You wouldn't want a player to be able to install Bioware into the points of Body he obtained from these other sources, only the natural, unmodified Body rating. Which would still be crazy high for some metahumans. Therein lies the problem of Bioware, even in tabletop. Am I right?

    If all of the above were accounted for, and Body Index was hard coded to equal unmodified Body with a max of 6, regardless of metahuman bonuses, it might be more balanced. Even then, the player would basically have cyberware that doesn't impact magic, doesn't have any negative impact actually. Kind of game breaking. So here's an idea. What if Body Index reduces the amount of Body that is used for Damage Reduction calculations? So, sure, you have all of this Bioware that makes you a badass, but if you get hit, it's really easy for damage to stick to you. Ooh, that might be a nasty enough trade off to make a player think twice.

    For an even easier simulation of that idea, with no new variables, just make Bioware reduce body directly, for all purposes. Sure, Trolls, PhysAds, Mages, and Samurai could get ahead in this system, but it could be implemented with the tools and functions that we currently have.

  • opifer

    opifer (Member)

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    I like the idea of bioware reducing Body. Makes sense.

  • mitilixatchil

    mitilixatchil (Member)

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    Well, also, we might be dealing with 1st gen or at best 2nd gen Bioware, which makes it easier for me to suggest that it would make the user more susceptible to injury.

  • Maverick87

    Maverick87 (Member)

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    Quote from mitilixatchil:

    Let's not forget that integrating Bioware would also require the creation and tracking of a new variable: Body Index. Also, the Body Index system, being based off of the character's natural Body rating, allowed Body heavy characters like Trolls to go crazy with Bioware. Even if you make the Body Index variable, how do you stop it from being confused by Cyber implants that increase Body, like Dermal Armor, Bone Lacing, and Dermal Sheathes, etc? In addition, Body increases from PhysAd powers or Increase Attribute spells? You wouldn't want a player to be able to install Bioware into the points of Body he obtained from these other sources, only the natural, unmodified Body rating. Which would still be crazy high for some metahumans. Therein lies the problem of Bioware, even in tabletop. Am I right?

    If all of the above were accounted for, and Body Index was hard coded to equal unmodified Body with a max of 6, regardless of metahuman bonuses, it might be more balanced. Even then, the player would basically have cyberware that doesn't impact magic, doesn't have any negative impact actually. Kind of game breaking. So here's an idea. What if Body Index reduces the amount of Body that is used for Damage Reduction calculations? So, sure, you have all of this Bioware that makes you a badass, but if you get hit, it's really easy for damage to stick to you. Ooh, that might be a nasty enough trade off to make a player think twice.

    For an even easier simulation of that idea, with no new variables, just make Bioware reduce body directly, for all purposes. Sure, Trolls, PhysAds, Mages, and Samurai could get ahead in this system, but it could be implemented with the tools and functions that we currently have.

    I think the era of the Body Index ended with 3rd edition. In 4th and 5th they are making bioware deduct from essence just as cyberware but it is more "Essence friendly". I think if they implemented it in game they would do the same for simplicity's sake.